Four Hip Hop-Related Conversation Enders
Tuesday September 16th 2008,
Filed under: Lists, This Is Hip Hop

Whenever I find myself in a particularly dreary environment – whether it’s some excruciating work-related function for my wife’s job or a social gathering where I do nothing but exchange pleasantries with complete strangers – my first impulse is to locate an individual who might have a few intelligent thoughts about music, then adhere to them to ease the passing of the evening.  For some men it’s professional sports, for others it’s grills or power tools, but me – and I realize that this may come as a shock to some of you – I can spend literally hours upon hours discussing music.  I once spent six hours at an exceptionally lame party discussing the merits of Roni Size’s New Forms (1997) with an equally enthusiastic gentleman, eventually sinking to a competition of recreating breakbeat patterns with our mouths after a few too many drinks.  I stayed up until 8:00 AM after a barbeque with a few co-workers digressing upon how brilliant Common’s pre-Like Water for Chocolate (2000) lyricism used to be.  I’ve participated in marathon debates on everything from Debussy to death metal without the slightest inkling of someone’s first name hours into the conversation.  My poor wife has nothing but chagrin as she scouts the premises frantically to introduce me to someone, all the while I’m picking some random dude’s brain about Eastern European folk music.

Yet occasionally there will be times when, just as a discussion has eased into a comfortable rhythm with a healthy exchange of opinions, someone will suddenly spout something so absurd, so ignorant, so vehemently against everything I believe in that every statement thereafter becomes completely devoid of interest or reason.  My brain immediately shuts down and I find myself looking for an escape route, politely at first, then growing desperate by the minute until I’m sweating uncontrollably and I can’t possibly fathom hearing another word this person says.  Far be it for me to shit on someone because of one measly opinion that means very little in the grand scheme of things, but when someone spouts the film-buff equivalent of, “Godfather III (1990) was the best of the trilogy,” what are you gonna do, pleasantly nod your head and continue to sip your drink?  The following are four actual music conversation gaffs that I’ve experienced over the years that have only resulted in heartbreak at the promise of something more than a shallow dialogue of likes-versus-dislikes.

“I still think The Predator is the best work Ice Cube’s ever done.”

Someone actually said this, without a trace of humor or irony.  I was at a wedding reception a few years ago and found myself in the familiar “hip hop ain’t what it used to be” exchange with another reveler.  I was becoming more and more impressed with dude’s recollections of when Poor Righteous TeachersHoly Intellect (1990) dropped and how floored he was by the production on Son of Bazerk’s Bazerk Bazerk Bazerk (1991) when suddenly this steaming pile of insight dropped from his jaws.  I began to feel dizzy as I pondered the Jedi-like mental stamina it would take for me to wrap my head around a statement this asinine.  Sure, I mean, in hindsight The Predator (1992) holds up pretty well, but, come on – ever hear of a little record titled AmeriKKKa’s Most Wanted (1990)?  To say nothing of one of the ten (arguably) most important statements in the entire canon, the peerless Death Certificate (1991)?  Any hope of a teasing “Ha! Gotcha!” became fleeting as he began decrying The Bomb Squad’s “dated production” on Cube’s debut and blaspheming about Sir Jinx’s “messy funk samples” on his shining hour.  Plus, and I didn’t realize this until later, but “ever done” carries the implication that Cube is still producing music of any sort of relevancy; wouldn’t “ever did” be more appropriate?  I bowed out of the conversation respectfully and returned to my assigned table to pick at the leftover dessert plates as I waited for the evening to end.

“Wicked” – Ice Cube 3:55 (The Predator, Priority 1992)

“J Dilla was so overrated.” b/w “All white people love J Dilla.”

I’ve stated before that I prefer Dilla’s earlier work over his post-millennium output (give or take a year), but that’s mostly because of the countless number of lesser producers who’ve bitten his signature off-syncopated shuffle and beat patterns in their drum tracks.  I can’t add anything to Dilla’s legacy that hasn’t been better articulated elsewhere, and I don’t want to get into the odd and obsessive file-sharing exhumation of his work since his passing.  But to dismiss him as “overrated” and nothing more is plain ignorant.  And (in this case) how can you claim Premier as your favorite producer ever without giving a shred of acknowledgement to Dilla?  And what the hell does “all white people love Dilla” mean?  These two back-to-back gaffs essentially halted what had up until then been an exhaustive discussion of the hip hop producer lexicon between myself and a friend, and neither of us has spoken of it since; it’s not exactly half-in-the-bag material that begins with, “Dude!  Remember that time when you said…”  Since then our hip hop-related conversations have been as dull as Q-Tip’s post-Tribe career.  A shame, really.  Speaking of Tribe…

“Climax (Instrumental)” – Slum Village
3:32 (Fantastic, Vol. 2, Goodvibe 2000)

“See, this is why Eminem is the greatest rapper of all time.”

It was a late afternoon in May as a group of my friends and I congregated around a picnic table, a few of us keeping eyes on the grill, sipping beers and enjoying the first warm breeze in eight months.  I was engaged in a lively track-by-track discussion of Midnight Marauders (1993) with a guy I didn’t know that well, as he was the new boyfriend of a friend of mine.  So far he had a thumbs-up approval from me, praising the snare hits and six-bar loops of the record, and dropping verse excerpts (both Tip and Phife’s) when necessary.  I must have slipped into a brief reverie for a moment, because the next thing I heard was something along the lines of Eminem and the word “greatest” without the slightest inkling of a segue.  I stared at him like he was a blathering, incomprehensible idiot as the guy gushed over Marshall Mathers like a proud parent whose kid just made the honor roll (this was 2003, if I recall correctly).  Look, I’m not trying to hate on some washed-up, near-forgotten white rapper who made the most out of his fifteen minutes, and I certainly won’t knock anyone who keeps a few of his discs on their shelf.  But the G.O.A.T., for Christ’s sake?  Besides, weren’t we just talking about Midnight Marauders here?  I stood up, said something along the lines of, “I can’t participate in this conversation anymore,” and broke the hell out like chickenpox.  A month later she dumped his ass.  Everything in its right place, as the saying goes.

Doe or Die is better than Illmatic.”

I love it when folks get a hankering to take Illmatic (1994) down a peg or two on the totem pole of Hip Hop Classics (I see you Brandon and Robbie) – not because I necessarily think it’s a weak or overrated album, but because Illmatic’s ego could always use a little deflation now and then.  Back in college I was having a chat with a fellow classmate before class when he dropped the above gem on me, and the reason the conversation ended wasn’t attributed to me throwing my arms up in defeat, but rather that I had to actually pause and think about his declaration.  AZ’s Doe or Die (1995) is the wild card of mid-‘90s NYC crime rap, a record I’ve always strongly defended and championed whenever the opportunity presented itself. While I was stunned in intense consideration, he shot me a smug look of satisfaction like, “Made you think, huh?”  By the time I could retort, class had already started, so I whispered back to him, “Doe or Die falls apart toward the end.”  Without a moment’s hesitation he responded, “So does Illmatic.”  Damn! Ultimately, my opinion of Illmatic hasn’t swayed, but I’ll graciously anoint props to anyone who genuinely believes that it stands in Doe or Die’s superior shadow.

“Ho Happy Jackie” – AZ 3:34 (Doe or Die, EMI 1995)


15 Comments so far
Leave a comment

Nice drop Flood. Nothing worse than thinking you’ve found a musical brethren than to have it shatter in your face.

Bastards.

Comment by Dan Love 09.17.08 @

Wow. That’s scary. It kills me that people forget completely about Ice Cube’s production work with the Boogiemen or his solo production. How anyone could say “The Predator” was better than “Amerikkka’s Most Wanted”, “Kill At Will” or “Death Certificate”is beyond me. The Dilla statement I’ve heard before and it boggles my mind. The “Okayplayer” tag is akin to a “backpacker=Rap for White folks” one.

I’ve had the Eminem as G.O.A.T. discussion/debate/argument more times than I care to remember…thank God my extensive Hip Hop knowledge coupled with my experience as a member of the 1995 Massachusetts State Champion Mock Trial/Debate Team squashed that. The whole “Doe Or Die” vs. “Illmatic” argument is a headcracker to me. “Illmatic” was the greatest EP in Hip Hop history! LOL.

My older brother hated “Fight Club” and thought “The Dark Knight” was too long. I wanted a blood test right then and there.

One.

Comment by Dart_Adams 09.17.08 @

I had guy tell me “When the Devil Knows Your Dude” was just as good/possibly better than “Dark Knight,” Dart. While I enjoy seeing Maris Tomei naked and getting porked, to even put those two movies is blasphemous, and I haven’t really talked to the homie since then.

Here’s a follow-up to DO OR DIE vs ILLMATIC: who’s had a more disappointing career afterwards? Keep in mind that Nas has tried many things and failed whereas AZ mainly sticks to the same formula with each LP and fades quickly from the hip hop consciousness a few months after each release.

Comment by Zilla Rocca 09.18.08 @

*When the Devil Knows You’re Dead*

Comment by Zilla Rocca 09.18.08 @

Zilla - I hear you on Nas and AZ’s career trajectories - no question - but I’m talking strict debut comparisons here. Obviously I think Illmatic is undisputed, but most days I’d much rather hear Doe or Die over it. My exhaustive familiarity with Illmatic tends to be a curse rather than a blessing when it comes to my own critical analysis of it, I guess.

“When The Devil Knows Your Dude” has a nice ring to it, by the way.

Comment by floodwatch 09.18.08 @

I can’t tell you how many great musical conversations have effectively ended with the other party telling me how “musically talented” they think John Mayer.
Upsetting.

Comment by AaronM 09.18.08 @

I don’t know how I would have reacted in these situations. Your reactions were much like mine when I hear someone quote a Juelz Santana line and praise it.

Comment by JK 09.19.08 @

This is probably one of the best bogs on the internet. I am so happy that I found this spot. Anyway, getting down to business, I have a few that may top these convos. Maybe it is because I don’t have the company of such musical afficianados as you do. I won’t say I am a peer because your knowledge stretches a bit further than mine, but I am no stranger to good hip hop either. Anyway, getting to the point:
1. I once had a fellow co-worker tell me that Juvenile was the better than Rakim! Yup, you read correctly. I could not take the higher ground as you have, so I ridiculed this man while taking customers for the next hour. Sentences like “Juvenile be talking about some serious issues” came out of this persons orifice that he claims is his mouth. What suprised me was that some folks were even defending this man, AND THEY WERE ADULTS WHO ATLEAST SHOULD”VE KNOWN BETTER(I don’t care where your from, facts are facts) Eventually, I ended the conversation and walked away to ask if I could take my break. Boy, if I smoked, I woulda ran through a pack of Newports that day.

2. At a concert recently, someone tried to tell me that Lil Wayne was just as good as Nas! I turned my back and went back to the concert as I learned through experience you cannot argue with these fools.

3. I once had someone tell me that no rappers bite off of anyone and that every rapper is original.LMFAO! You know where this went.
Anyway, ya’ll have a good one, I will be in here alot more! Put up some more mixes damn you!

Comment by Chris Newberry 09.21.08 @

I actually have one more.
A Girl I used to date who proclaims herself as a hip hop fan and true head tried to tell me that Lil Kim was better than Rah Digga. Now, I know Kim has had a longer, much more fruitful career(reality show and all) but this was not because of skills. This was generally due to shamelessness and her willingness to pretty much strip, suck, fuck, and augment her body all in the name of fame and record sales. This is besides the fact that no one is going to tell me that a woman who has her rhymes written for her is skillfully better than a woman who spit all of her own shit and was part of a crew whose general focus was energy and skills on the mic, not drugs, image and sex appeal. Needless to say, that relationship did not last too long.

Comment by Chris Newberry 09.21.08 @

I had a room mate in college who claimed he loved hip hop, but had never heard of Tribe, didn’t like the Roots, and committed the ultimate act of blasphemy, when he said BG’s album was better than Enter the 36 Chambers.

He transferred at the semester. Thank god.

Comment by Keyser Soze 09.22.08 @

I mean, Kim had a great voice. I’m sure Hardcore’s better than anything Rah Digga ever did. I hate the Roots too. And Dilla is overrated. Illmatic’s a lot better than Doe or Die though.

Comment by Tray 09.23.08 @

a friend of mine once announced his deep appreciation of the works of ‘doctor dee-ree’.

i kid you not.

Comment by Ass Hat 09.26.08 @

Do me a favor Tray, go listen to both of their albums. Line for Line, Kim ain’t fucking wit Digga, at all.She(Kim) was alot prettier, and she had mad sex appeal, but she benefited from having Biggie write a majority of her rhymes. She did not spit her own stuff at all and if it were not for her being caught up in drama, and stripping for paychecks, no way she better than Digga line for line. sorry poppy, no way!

Comment by Chris Newberry 09.27.08 @

[…] mentioning of AZ’s Doe or Die (1995) a few weeks ago when presenting a handful of hip hop-related conversation-enders sparked a recent reawakening of my appreciation for the album, despite its front-loaded nature and […]

Pingback by Beat Dissection: Pete Rock, Vol. 2 | floodwatchmusic.com - Punching the Sky Since 2006 10.16.08 @

“BG’s album was better than Enter the 36 Chambers”
which BG album?

Comment by hamadi 10.19.08 @



Leave a comment
Line and paragraph breaks automatic, e-mail address never displayed, HTML allowed: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>

(required)

(required)