When I received the Living in Harmony (2007) mixtape from Philadelphia’s Clean Guns last month, I would have never expected that I’d be listening to it on more or less a daily basis for weeks afterward. I reviewed it recently and can confidently re-establish that it really is that good; this is also coming from someone who rarely ever gets excited by mixtapes. The group’s own Zilla Rocca, aka Rap Jack Bauer, has been a frequent presence ’round these internets as of late, but the guy has a marketing strategy that I can get down with: rather than bombard the blogs with flashy promotional flyers and links, he drops insightful and articulate comments that reveal his love for hip hop over anything else. Fresh from 33 Jones interviewed Zilla recently about the new mixtape and Clean Guns’ own label, Beat Garden Entertainment, but I wanted to get his thoughts on the creative process of writing lyrics and constructing beats, which he was more than happy to oblige.

FWM: What is your earliest memory of being affected by hip hop?

ZR: I was first really affected by hip hop when I heard “Method Man” by Wu-Tang. I used to rock that album on cassette every day to grade school but would always fast forward to “Method Man” at some point. I remember feeling like I needed more songs like that; it grabbed me by the throat and didn’t let go until the song ended. The whole Wu album was like that, and I became a diehard fan of theirs to this day. After “Method Man,” I was hooked to hip hop forever as a fan and I probably would’ve stayed just a fan if Nico didn’t start writing, because I honestly didn’t think I could ever be in the same “profession” as Method Man or Biggie or Nas.

FWM: Both you and Nico have known each other for years. When did you begin writing and working together?

ZR: We started at 14 or 15 years old, just writing verses on our own, then calling each other and being like “Yo, listen to this!!?!” We still do that to this day a lot. Then we’d take our raps, get some instrumentals, and go to his sister Janette’s room to record on her karaoke machine – that was our “studio.” Some of the first beats we got on was “Paparazzi” by Xzibit, “Wu Renegades” by Killarmy, “I’m the King” by Royce da 5′9′, and “Bad Meets Evil” Eminem & Royce. We were wack as shit, too!

FWM: Lyrically, your influences are all over the map: I hear a lot of Ghostface, as well as Gift of Gab from Blackalicious, believe it or not. Who are some other emcees, past or present, that inspire you?

ZR: My dream team starting five of MCs is Andre 3000, Nas, Ghostface, Aesop Rock and Common. And Jay-Z, Mos Def, Black Thought, and Brother Ali are off the bench. I used to really study Inspectah Deck when I started writing – no one in Wu-Tang writes a better straight 16 front to back as consistently as him. But everyone I listen to to this day, I take a small piece from them somehow. I’m constantly picking out small traits, whether it be their inflection, flow, rhyme scheme, phrasing, or pauses in between words, and I’ve been doing this for about 10 years. Right now, my dudes are Sean Price, Joell Ortiz and J Dilla – Dilla really knew how to make a beat his own from an MC standpoint. I could list a thousand other MCs and what I’ve taken from their style, piece by piece, but that’s a whole ‘nother interview in itself.

FWM: Do you write on a regular basis as part of your daily routine (for example, in the morning before work, or late at night), or is it pretty much when the inspiration hits (á la Kool G Rap, e.g. “write rhymes in the shower”)? Do you have to have a beat to write to?

ZR: I’m definitely an MC who writes when inspiration hits. And 95% of the time, I need a beat to write to. I can go three weeks without writing anything and then over a four-day span, knock out a 100 bars. I’ve realized that I can’t control inspiration, I can only ride it out when it hits. Otherwise, I’m just wasting ink. I’ve written full songs at 8:45 AM at my job, at 3:00 AM in my room, and in the studio going back and forth with Nico for a couple hours after dinner. If it’s not there though, I don’t force it cause you end up laying down shit that later on you know wasn’t good at the time but you did it anyway.

FWM: A facet of Clean Guns that I’m particularly taken with is the directness of the lyrical content; both you and Nico seem to prefer ruminations on reality and human emotion rather than abstract concept pieces or left-field storytelling. Do you both try to avoid that sort of style?

ZR: We compliment each other so well in that I am the voice of the group that likes abstract shit, weird concepts, funny stories – y’all just haven’t heard them yet! Nico is the straightforward, articulate, reality-based monster that deals with emotions, life experiences, family and friends. We bounce off each other in that aspect and I have no problem writing on more honest topics, like death or relationships or society’s ills. But when I’m in my own lane, I’ll write a song about passing out in a dirty strip club, or the inner workings of a local TV news room, or flip a story about selling drugs while driving a cab for a living. I love Tom Waits for his use of imagination, weird characters and odd stories and I try to incorporate that more in my rhymes and songs. And I love Ghostface, Aesop Rock & Camp Lo for just blacking out on beats and rhyming about pink flamingos and crystal ski masks and banana hydrants or whatever they want to say. It sounds fly and if a beat tells me to spit four bars about abstract left-field fly shit, I’ll throw it in there just to break up the standard 16 bars about one specific, real topic.

FWM: Let’s talk about the production aspect of your role in the group. Which do you most identify with: the producer or the MC? Is there one that you enjoy more?

ZR: I’ve been an MC for about ten years and a producer for about four years. It’s easier to make a beat than to write a rhyme, though. A standard hip hop beat is really, really fucking easy to make: set the BPM anywhere from 77 to 98. Add a fat kick and snare, a thick bass hit, some hi-hats, and a sample or simple two- to four-bar melody and you’re done. But there’s no machine that’s gonna give you a concept to write about, or a button to push that’ll rhyme “cockroach” with “doctor throat.”

As the producer, I’m kind of the dictator in that I’m doing everything I can to get the best song possible, musically and vocally. The actual role of the producer is to make the artist sound their best, not to mug in front of the cameras and wear sunglasses at night while wearing bigger chains than the artist. But now that hip hop producers are bigger than most aritsts, that has became the role of the hip hop producer. People know Dre, Just Blaze, Kanye and Pharrell more than they know some of the artists they’ve worked with. So in Clean Guns and in Beat Garden, if I’m the producer and engineer of a session, I give honest and constructive feedback to everybody because I want the finished song to be its absolute best. And everyone in our camp, from Nico to Triple Nickels, understands that and we handle our business professionally because we all want to make great music.

FWM: Who are some producers that have influenced you?

ZR: As I said, I’m a diehard Wu fan so RZA is a no-brainer. I really like Kanye’s production – it’s mellow and funky. Just Blaze is the king of East Coast bangers, so I study him. I really love Madlib and J Dilla – just the sloppiness and freedom to let the music feel good, whether it’s offbeat or overcompressed or too low or too loud. I love that method of production moreso than the idea that everything has to be placed perfectly and sound impeccable at all times. I love Pete Rock because no one makes simpler beats that stand the test of time, and Dan the Automator, since he uses so many different sounds to sample. And Prince Paul, because he’s fearless as well. Havoc from Mobb Deep is simple but frightening. And El-P because he’s choatic, layered and frightening, and DJ Premier because his tracks bleed hip hop.

FWM: You’ve stated that you never sample from vinyl sources. Are there any personal ‘rules’ that you adhere to when constructing beats? For example, some producers refuse to sample other hip hop records.

ZR: I do have personal rules. I won’t consciously use the same sample someone else did. I won’t take 15 samples off one album. I won’t just sample soul or funk records – it’s too easy to do that. I won’t use obvious loops like the first eight seconds of “Billie Jean” or “Jaws.” I guess my underlying rule is to push myself to be as creative as possible, because like I said, when doing both beats and rhymes, beats are easier to make. So in order to get better, I have to make rules to challenge myself.

FWM: How conscious are you of trying to flip or disguise a sample so as to render it unrecognizable?

ZR: For some samples, the recognizable part is the best part of the record, and no matter how you chop it, it won’t be as hot. Other times, a record has so many pieces that are ridiculous, you can rearrange it and flip it to make it your version. If you heard the sample I used for “Say Goodnight,” you wouldn’t know I used it. But if you heard the sample I did for “These Words I Write,” I jacked the main melody wholesale and arranged it differently. It’s about what feels best and what sounds best. When I heard Just Blaze chop up “Super Freak” for Jay-Z’s “Kingdom Come,” I said to myself, “Ok, you can sample everything and flip it,” because that record has been used to death, and Just made it brand new. I wouldn’t have liked that song if Jay-Z just rapped over “Super Freak.”

“Say Goodnight” – Clean Guns feat. So-S@y 2:46 (Sometimes There Is Trouble, Beat Garden 2006)

FWM: You use Reason 3.0 for your beats, which I’m also familiar with and have been using for years. What are the positives and negatives of using software for your productions? Are there any particular limitations to it? Do you ever wish for the ‘tangibility’ of a sampler and turntable?

ZR: Reason isn’t a pure hip hop device like an MPC is – the sounds on Reason from a drum and bass standpoint aren’t as thick and fat as an analog machine. And it wasn’t made to be a straight hip hop sampler, so the the samplers don’t allow you to do specifically what you want all of the time; you have to work within Reason’s guidelines in that accord. I’ve been thinking about getting both a sampler and turntable a lot recently, just so I can have more options. And I feel like I’ve mastered Reason in the past four years, so it’s time for more tools and more sounds.

FWM: Where do you see Clean Guns and Beat Garden ten years from now?

ZR: Ten years from now, I see us having a vast catalogue with Clean Guns and the entire Beat Garden camp. The listening public has heard about 40% of what Clean
Guns has recorded. We live in the studio. We have so many joints recorded, for mixtapes, EPs, solo albums – we just pick and choose what to put and when to do it. As a company, our tagline is “Many styles. Many styles,” and that’s precisely what the motive is behind making music. So in ten years, we’ll probably have albums that were hardcore hip hop, indie experimental shit, emo shit, instrumental albums, party joints, club bangers, whatever. We just want to keep our heads down, work hard, make great music that people respond to and present it in a professional, eye-catching way. There are already 47 million rappers out there right now, so for the next ten years we’re gonna have to keep separating ourselves by making quality shit that stands out visually as well as musically.

This is a new time for music and music fans – there are more choices than ever. Why should someone buy a Clean Guns record or go to Professor Anarchy’s MySpace page when they’re getting beseiged daily with ads, spam, flyers, invites, mixtapes, etc. from hundreds of other rappers that, honestly, suck ass? I think our best chance is to let people discover us and not push shit on them like a used car salesman: “Here, listen to this, buy this, check this out, check out my boy, check our movement, here’s our clothing line, here’s our DVD.” That seems to be what most cats are doing right now.

I’d rather us make great albums, put on outstanding shows and grab people word of mouth or on tour, and let the name spread in an organic way while still using the internet as a way to be accessible to people.

“These Words I Write” – Clean Guns 4:23 (Sometimes There Is Trouble, Beat Garden 2006)